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	<title>Comments on: Thurs Mar 21</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~kass/smbrain/?feed=rss2&#038;p=271" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~kass/smbrain/?p=271</link>
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	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 21 Mar 2013 00:10:29 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: rvistein</title>
		<link>http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~kass/smbrain/?p=271#comment-504</link>
		<dc:creator>rvistein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Mar 2013 00:10:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~kass/smbrain/?p=271#comment-504</guid>
		<description>Good, sounds like these guys have read their Karl Popper and aren&#039;t spouting claims of certainty whenever they show consistency.

It seems like the animal could be using additional information rather than just the visual input that an isolated retina is restricted to. In the text they show that the spike time code is significantly different from the animal results but I don&#039;t see the test if it differs from the temporal correlation code. It seems directly comparing the decoders would be important in the case that some additional bias is influencing the whole animal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good, sounds like these guys have read their Karl Popper and aren&#8217;t spouting claims of certainty whenever they show consistency.</p>
<p>It seems like the animal could be using additional information rather than just the visual input that an isolated retina is restricted to. In the text they show that the spike time code is significantly different from the animal results but I don&#8217;t see the test if it differs from the temporal correlation code. It seems directly comparing the decoders would be important in the case that some additional bias is influencing the whole animal.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~kass/smbrain/?p=271#comment-503</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Mar 2013 23:24:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~kass/smbrain/?p=271#comment-503</guid>
		<description>Very interesting paper.  The authors propose a method for investigating the unit of information in the neural code.  Their proposed strategy is to measure the quantity of information available to an animal within a particular candidate code and compare it with the quantity of information the animal&#039;s behavior indicates the animal must be exploiting.  Candidate codes that encode less information than the animal&#039;s behavior indicates it utilizes can be disregarded as implausible given the animal&#039;s performance.  

Their reasoning certainly seems intuitive, but the challenge remains to measure the amount of information provided by various candidate codes in the activity of some animal&#039;s nervous system during the performance of some task with measurable information requirements.  In order to meet this challenge the authors performed an experiment with mice performing a visual discrimination task and measured the activity within the mice&#039;s retinas.  The retina provides a strategic advantage to the experimenters in that it&#039;s exclusively feedforward and the only channel for visual information available to the animals.  It follows that all visual information the animals appear to exploit in the task must be made available to the animal through whatever code is actually utilized in the retina.

The authors applied their strategy in their analysis of the mice&#039;s visual discrimination task concluding that a temporal code that does not assume the independence of spiking events is the only code (in general terms, that is, where we compare it with a time-pooling rate code and the temporal code which makes the independence assumption) that encodes enough information to explain the animal&#039;s performance.  This is quite an exciting result.  Such a code is both the most information-rich and the most mysterious in that it requires that detailed temporal relations between individual spikes be distinguished. In animals with large nervous systems, preserving detailed information about the temporal relations between individual spiking events seems difficult, so if such a code is utilized in human neocortex, for instance, then some interesting mechanisms for decoding such temporal relations must be at work.  

The authors&#039; conclusions about the retina seem justified to me, but it is very much unclear what their findings concerning the retina imply about other parts of the nervous system, and particularly, the rest of the brain.  It seems plausible that, as they suggest, multiple codes are used simultaneously or by different parts of the nervous system.  Nevertheless, I appreciate the authors&#039; methodology and find their results and encouraging for prospects of a fine-grain neural code.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting paper.  The authors propose a method for investigating the unit of information in the neural code.  Their proposed strategy is to measure the quantity of information available to an animal within a particular candidate code and compare it with the quantity of information the animal&#8217;s behavior indicates the animal must be exploiting.  Candidate codes that encode less information than the animal&#8217;s behavior indicates it utilizes can be disregarded as implausible given the animal&#8217;s performance.  </p>
<p>Their reasoning certainly seems intuitive, but the challenge remains to measure the amount of information provided by various candidate codes in the activity of some animal&#8217;s nervous system during the performance of some task with measurable information requirements.  In order to meet this challenge the authors performed an experiment with mice performing a visual discrimination task and measured the activity within the mice&#8217;s retinas.  The retina provides a strategic advantage to the experimenters in that it&#8217;s exclusively feedforward and the only channel for visual information available to the animals.  It follows that all visual information the animals appear to exploit in the task must be made available to the animal through whatever code is actually utilized in the retina.</p>
<p>The authors applied their strategy in their analysis of the mice&#8217;s visual discrimination task concluding that a temporal code that does not assume the independence of spiking events is the only code (in general terms, that is, where we compare it with a time-pooling rate code and the temporal code which makes the independence assumption) that encodes enough information to explain the animal&#8217;s performance.  This is quite an exciting result.  Such a code is both the most information-rich and the most mysterious in that it requires that detailed temporal relations between individual spikes be distinguished. In animals with large nervous systems, preserving detailed information about the temporal relations between individual spiking events seems difficult, so if such a code is utilized in human neocortex, for instance, then some interesting mechanisms for decoding such temporal relations must be at work.  </p>
<p>The authors&#8217; conclusions about the retina seem justified to me, but it is very much unclear what their findings concerning the retina imply about other parts of the nervous system, and particularly, the rest of the brain.  It seems plausible that, as they suggest, multiple codes are used simultaneously or by different parts of the nervous system.  Nevertheless, I appreciate the authors&#8217; methodology and find their results and encouraging for prospects of a fine-grain neural code.</p>
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		<title>By: edundas</title>
		<link>http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~kass/smbrain/?p=271#comment-502</link>
		<dc:creator>edundas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Mar 2013 22:59:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~kass/smbrain/?p=271#comment-502</guid>
		<description>Do we know what aspect of the neural signal the temporal correlation code is capturing that the spike count and timing codes aren&#039;t? Is it just making the signal more stable? Could it be incorporating the dynamics of on/off cells better to give a sharper signal?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do we know what aspect of the neural signal the temporal correlation code is capturing that the spike count and timing codes aren&#8217;t? Is it just making the signal more stable? Could it be incorporating the dynamics of on/off cells better to give a sharper signal?</p>
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		<title>By: gocker</title>
		<link>http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~kass/smbrain/?p=271#comment-501</link>
		<dc:creator>gocker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Mar 2013 22:59:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~kass/smbrain/?p=271#comment-501</guid>
		<description>The authors showed that decoding retinal ganglion cell spike trains under the assumptions that they are mutually independent and contain only first order ISI correlations (&quot;temporal correlation code&quot;) was sufficient to match the animal&#039;s performance on a two-alternative forced choice task.  Another test of the neural code would be to check what features of the retinal ganglion cells are transmitted by downstream neurons.  If the neural code (for this task) is the authors&#039; &quot;temporal correlation code&quot;, then shouldn&#039;t it also be the case that the responses of neurons at the next location in the visual system can be predicted taking in to account only first order ISI correlations, and treating different neurons as independent?  And, has this been checked?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The authors showed that decoding retinal ganglion cell spike trains under the assumptions that they are mutually independent and contain only first order ISI correlations (&#8220;temporal correlation code&#8221;) was sufficient to match the animal&#8217;s performance on a two-alternative forced choice task.  Another test of the neural code would be to check what features of the retinal ganglion cells are transmitted by downstream neurons.  If the neural code (for this task) is the authors&#8217; &#8220;temporal correlation code&#8221;, then shouldn&#8217;t it also be the case that the responses of neurons at the next location in the visual system can be predicted taking in to account only first order ISI correlations, and treating different neurons as independent?  And, has this been checked?</p>
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		<title>By: Karthik Lakshmanan</title>
		<link>http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~kass/smbrain/?p=271#comment-500</link>
		<dc:creator>Karthik Lakshmanan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Mar 2013 22:46:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~kass/smbrain/?p=271#comment-500</guid>
		<description>The authors describe 3 codes that vary quite drastically in complexity, and compare their performance in decoding a retinal task. While they rule out the 2 simplest codes - spike counts and spike timings assuming independence of spikes, they find that the third code - spike timings assuming correlation between successive spikes - contains enough information to allow decoding using it to approach in vivo task accuracy. 

For code 3, in the supplementary information section they factor the joint distribution of spike time and previous spike interval as a product of two functions, fitted by cubic splines. Is this a natural thing to do, and is there any intuition behind using this particular form (product)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The authors describe 3 codes that vary quite drastically in complexity, and compare their performance in decoding a retinal task. While they rule out the 2 simplest codes &#8211; spike counts and spike timings assuming independence of spikes, they find that the third code &#8211; spike timings assuming correlation between successive spikes &#8211; contains enough information to allow decoding using it to approach in vivo task accuracy. </p>
<p>For code 3, in the supplementary information section they factor the joint distribution of spike time and previous spike interval as a product of two functions, fitted by cubic splines. Is this a natural thing to do, and is there any intuition behind using this particular form (product)?</p>
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		<title>By: jsiegel</title>
		<link>http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~kass/smbrain/?p=271#comment-497</link>
		<dc:creator>jsiegel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Mar 2013 22:28:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~kass/smbrain/?p=271#comment-497</guid>
		<description>This is an interesting paradigm, but I&#039;m not quite sure if I buy into the results completely. Even though their rationale for the temporal correlation code makes sense as evidenced by the spike count code and spike timing codes falling short of the animals performance using optimized (Bayesian) decoding, the authors raise some issues regarding possible error and the limit on the different spike pattern permutations that they tested (ie. code with multicell noise correlation...maybe?). In addition, it&#039;s possible that the in Vitro stimulus differed from the behavioral task. Perhaps the animal used other contextual cues during the behavioral task (although I didn&#039;t read the supplemental materials)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an interesting paradigm, but I&#8217;m not quite sure if I buy into the results completely. Even though their rationale for the temporal correlation code makes sense as evidenced by the spike count code and spike timing codes falling short of the animals performance using optimized (Bayesian) decoding, the authors raise some issues regarding possible error and the limit on the different spike pattern permutations that they tested (ie. code with multicell noise correlation&#8230;maybe?). In addition, it&#8217;s possible that the in Vitro stimulus differed from the behavioral task. Perhaps the animal used other contextual cues during the behavioral task (although I didn&#8217;t read the supplemental materials)?</p>
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		<title>By: blarsen</title>
		<link>http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~kass/smbrain/?p=271#comment-496</link>
		<dc:creator>blarsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Mar 2013 22:12:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~kass/smbrain/?p=271#comment-496</guid>
		<description>My question is about choice of classifiers. As the textbook and paper mention, a Bayesian classifier is optimal. However, in the literature that I am familiar with--decoding from fMRI activation--support vector machine classifiers are far more common. Does the optimality of a Bayesian classifier make it the ideal choice for all situations, i.e. should they be used over SVCs? Or is there advantages to different types of classifiers that make them better suited to certain types of data (or research questions)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My question is about choice of classifiers. As the textbook and paper mention, a Bayesian classifier is optimal. However, in the literature that I am familiar with&#8211;decoding from fMRI activation&#8211;support vector machine classifiers are far more common. Does the optimality of a Bayesian classifier make it the ideal choice for all situations, i.e. should they be used over SVCs? Or is there advantages to different types of classifiers that make them better suited to certain types of data (or research questions)?</p>
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		<title>By: amweinst</title>
		<link>http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~kass/smbrain/?p=271#comment-495</link>
		<dc:creator>amweinst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Mar 2013 22:04:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~kass/smbrain/?p=271#comment-495</guid>
		<description>This study found evidence against coarse coding in the neural code and instead found that a temporal correlation code performed as well as the animal at a 2-alternative forced choice task when examining the retina. The authors were good at pointing out that they did not confirm temporal correlation coding as the neural code and was really intriguing. But they are trying to show that temporal correlation coding is no different than the animal response, which can&#039;t really be shown statistically. Also, we talked in class about how population codes and Bayesian models are difficult to dissociate in vitro, but the authors did not look at population codes. Would it be possible to dissociate those two using this data?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This study found evidence against coarse coding in the neural code and instead found that a temporal correlation code performed as well as the animal at a 2-alternative forced choice task when examining the retina. The authors were good at pointing out that they did not confirm temporal correlation coding as the neural code and was really intriguing. But they are trying to show that temporal correlation coding is no different than the animal response, which can&#8217;t really be shown statistically. Also, we talked in class about how population codes and Bayesian models are difficult to dissociate in vitro, but the authors did not look at population codes. Would it be possible to dissociate those two using this data?</p>
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		<title>By: juncholp</title>
		<link>http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~kass/smbrain/?p=271#comment-491</link>
		<dc:creator>juncholp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Mar 2013 20:41:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~kass/smbrain/?p=271#comment-491</guid>
		<description>I think this paper provides convincing evidence that the retinal ganglion cells use temporal codes, and the use of spike timing information may be generalized fairly well to the other sensory neurons serving different types of sensation. However, this may not be the case for the cortical neurons, which exhibit tremendous variability in the temporal distribution of spikes in their discharge patterns. Given such variability, cortical neurons are thought to use rate codes in ensembles of neurons rather than transmitting information using the temporal code. Thus, decoding using the temporal code of cortical neurons may be worse or equivalent of that using the rate code.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this paper provides convincing evidence that the retinal ganglion cells use temporal codes, and the use of spike timing information may be generalized fairly well to the other sensory neurons serving different types of sensation. However, this may not be the case for the cortical neurons, which exhibit tremendous variability in the temporal distribution of spikes in their discharge patterns. Given such variability, cortical neurons are thought to use rate codes in ensembles of neurons rather than transmitting information using the temporal code. Thus, decoding using the temporal code of cortical neurons may be worse or equivalent of that using the rate code.</p>
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		<title>By: bendler</title>
		<link>http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~kass/smbrain/?p=271#comment-490</link>
		<dc:creator>bendler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:54:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.stat.cmu.edu/~kass/smbrain/?p=271#comment-490</guid>
		<description>In Figure 3 I am curious about the trend of the temporal correlation decoding towards the upper bound of tested spatial frequencies. Because the decoding is Bayesian, it will be as good or better than the actual decoder the animal uses. In the bottom row of the figure, decoder performance for spatial frequencies up to approximately 0.4 cycles/degree does not appear significantly different from the animal&#039;s actual performance. However the decoder output does not fall to chance level beyond this spatial frequency like the animal&#039;s performance does. What sources of noise could be present to impair discrimination?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In Figure 3 I am curious about the trend of the temporal correlation decoding towards the upper bound of tested spatial frequencies. Because the decoding is Bayesian, it will be as good or better than the actual decoder the animal uses. In the bottom row of the figure, decoder performance for spatial frequencies up to approximately 0.4 cycles/degree does not appear significantly different from the animal&#8217;s actual performance. However the decoder output does not fall to chance level beyond this spatial frequency like the animal&#8217;s performance does. What sources of noise could be present to impair discrimination?</p>
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